Miyazaki actually came out of retirement to make this film. I think that's pretty significant, and should make us sit up and pay closer attention to the intent, the different meanings, tropes, and images in the film. After all, in animation, everything is deliberate. It isn't so much a conscious-expressing art as it is the careful crafting of a fictional piece like a short story. Why would Miyazaki do this?
So along those lines...
2) The first half of Spirited Away centers around the personal growth and challenge presented to Chihiro. How do you think that Miyazaki is addressing the experience of meeting his friend's daughter?
A survey from 2004 about Junior High students in Japan (READ! really interesting!)
http://www.childresearch.net/RESOURCE/DATA/MONO/EASY/index.html
http://www.childresearch.net/RESOURCE/DATA/MONO/EASY/index.html
Japanese children and their fathers!
http://www.childresearch.net/RESOURCE/DATA/SPECIAL/FATHER/FIGURE1.HTMActually, this whole site is really interesting... helpful for people doing their projects if they need it.
http://www.childresearch.net/RESEARCH/DATA_JCHILD/index.html3) The setting of Spirited Away is really important. Why would Miyazaki set this movie in a bathhouse, let alone a spiritual one?
Here's a website about water and religious purification :
24 comments:
1) The fantasy world existing in Spirited Away is the one that we can explore as another society. While Totoro's fantasy world was closer to the 'pure and peaceful nature,' Spritied Away's was the one that has conflicts and certain rules for the society. This society was already built and developed according to several spririts' different lifestyles. For example, it had different sizes of bathtubs because some spirits are bigger than others. Like this, the fantasy world here was built in a very logical way that we human can also understand-although we are different species. While Totoro's world is simply very magical-flying and making new trees etc, Spirited Away's world similar to human's society though it has magics. This fantasy world serves as a factor providing a new perspective for our world. Yes, our world is very different that we don't use magics and we look all the same. However, the conflicts, economics, power and imperialism in this fantasy world translates our world's problems in a new and fantastic way.
2. I thought this question was way too straightfoward.. Well, I think he addresses the experience as the mental growth that spoiled children get to experience. Chihiro, who was a spoiled girl at the beginning becomes a courageous and respectful girl at the end.
3. I think he set it at the bathhouse because that is the place where the usual life styles of spirits reveal the best. If the setting was at somthing like a cartel where spirits fight each other with their magic, this world will not appeal to audience at all. However, showing the naive and similar lifestyles of spirits that we can also relate to, the bathhouse appeals a lot to the audience. Furthermore, this is the place where the idea of capitalism appears a lot.
#2.. ish (Again, hehe). Although there is the obvious answer of Miyazaki wanting children to grow up strong and independent, after looking at the statistics represented in those sites, I think there's a lot to say about the way parents are in Japan too. There's the saying in Japan, 子供は親の背中を見て育つ, kids growing up watching their parent's back? It would be used as a positive for parents to work hard as an example, but modernly I'm pretty sure it's negative and definitely reflects in the large number of fathers that think raising kids should be for the mother, or that they are devoted to their work and come home late, etc. I mean Chihiro is a spoiled baby in the way, but she didn't get like that because her parents "spoiled" her in the sense that they loved her so much, it seems more like they didn't give her the right attention and just tossed her whatever she needed without nurturing her, which is the same as neglect in the end. It's kind of sad that in the end the people that give her the attention and situations for growth are not her parents, but not even family is so perfect either. Sometimes kids just gotta learn on their own and through their own live experiences. Miyazaki often focuses on a n individual over a family unit anyhow.
The fantasy world in Spirited Away is one that expresses the true emotions and feelings of the human world. The spirit world of Totoro explores the purity of nature in relation to humans. It is also important to note that we view the fantasy world in Spirited Away as a member of that world, whereas in Totoro, we are only able to acknowledge the existence of the spirits and view them from the human world. Many of the unpleasant emotions and feelings such as hatred, jealousy, lust, and greed are prevalent within the fantasy world of Spirited away. In totoro, one has to infer how their spirit world interacts, as we only know them to show up when our main characters needed help.
2) He addresses the fact of how the girl, originally being rather bratty or spoiled, through some way or another, changes for the better. Whether this transformation was due to an environment change or a personality change, she underwent a change of some sort.
In both Totoro and Spirited Away, the dual fantasy worlds serve as environments in which the protagonists embark on the journeys from which they will emerge stronger and more independent young women. In the real world of Totoro, Mei spends her days trying to keep herself amused while Satsuki goes to school, and their concern for their mother's condition hangs above their heads. In the fantasy world of Totoro, Totoro shows both girls the strength that they possess through their devotion to each other and to their parents, a strength that culminates in a happy ending for the family. Similarly, the real world of Spirited Away leaves Chihiro with an unwanted move and less than loving parents. In contrast, though, the fantasy world of Spirited Away truly distinguishes itself from its real counterpart. Whereas in Totoro, the "fantasy" world was merely a lens through which Mei and Satsuki were able to view the real world, in Spirited Away, the bathhouse is an entirely different world. This is reflected in Chihiro's transformation from a sullen and spoiled little girl to a more independent and mature young woman. The degree to which the fantasy world differs from its "real" counterpart reflects the degree to which the heroine grows and matures.
The setting of the bathhouse represents the cleansing and purification that Chihiro undergoes on her journey. In essence, she is being reborn as a mature and independent young woman through her experience, as opposed to the sullen and spoiled teenager that she was before her experience. A distinction between purification and innocence can be made here, as innocence is most commonly associated with the youth who have not yet been tainted by the corruption of the world, and yet here Chihiro has seen more of this corruption by the end of her journey. While this may make her less innocent, it certainly doesn't make her less pure, as she has learned the value of her friendships and emerged a stronger person by the end of her journey. The water and religious purification article also cites purification as the counterpart of sincerity, which draws some interesting parallels to the concept of the dual fantasy worlds in Spirited Away. Perhaps the sincerity that Chihiro develops through her experience in the bathhouse may be contrasted with the facade of purification that the setting projects.
1) The fantasy world in Totoro is kind of an idealized fantasy world; a true child’s fantasy where everything is perfect and life is centered around fun. The fantasy world in Spirited Away is almost like another reality with it’s own society, social hierarchy and norms, and allusions to today’s society. Because the main characters in Totoro are at a very young age, their fantasy world parallels their carefree, fun-filled lives. However, since the main character of Spirited Away is older and is in a transition stage between child and young adult, she faces a harsher fantasy world that provides her with the challenges needed to mature.
2) When Miyazaki first met his friend’s daughter, he had the impression that she was spoiled and immature. I think Miyazaki felt this way about a lot of young Japanese girls in today’s time period and he’s addressing this increase of immature girls by trying to show that a girl just like them, Chihiro, has potential for growth and maturity.
3) I think the purpose of the bathhouse is to reference Chihiro’s coming of age. A bathhouse is meant to purify and cleanse the mind, body, and soul. In Spirited Away, her experiences at the bathhouse cleanse her mind, body, and soul and help her mature and grow as an individual. I think the bathhouse also represents the materialistic society. Only people of a certain class can afford the luxury of a trip to a bathhouse where everyone waits on you hand and foot. In the movie, the workers of bathhouse exemplify the greed and materialism that is associated with bathhouses.
1) The dual fantasy world of Spirited Away is one more akin to Alice and Wonderland, I feel. Chihiro's entrance reminded me of Alice falling down the rabbit hole, like a dream that she cannot wake up from. Totoro's fantasy world is complicated by dreams, in which some of Satsuki and Mei's encounters with Totoro end with them sleeping. Although this become less relevant towards the end of Totoro where reality and fantasy mesh together, Spirited Away retains its own dreamlike fantasy through the dust of the car after Chihiro and her parents leave the bathhouse and the glint of Zeniba's hair tie at the end.
2) He's addressing the spoiledness of his friend's daughter, who lacks the vitality and responsibility that Miyazaki endows Chihiro with. He presents Chihiro as I thik most Japanese girls would react if put in a new situation like that (clutzy, sad, afraid). However, with some gusto and willingness to try new things, Miyazaki shows that working in the bathhouse (or work in general) can cleanse the spirit of laziness and fear, allowing Chihiro to become the strong-willed person she is at the end of the film
1)I agree with all the other people's opinions. As may people said before, I also thought that the main difference between fantasy world of Sprited Away and Totoro is reality.. In Totoro, the sprit world(?) is just for the two sisters(can't remember the name..)They can see and meet what/whoever they want and meet their desires and dreams in it. For example, as in the growing tree scene and cat bus. But in Sprited Away, the fantasy world is not that easy-going world for Chihiro. Her parents changed into pigs, and she has to do hard works. She became mature mentally through those works..Of course those whole sprits are not realistic at all compared to 'real' world, but the overall atmosphere and sitaution upon Chihiro are more realistic(harder) than in Totoro.
The fantasy world of Spirited Away seemed more amazing to me, and much more real than that of Totoro. It created an entire world that exists within the "real" world. Miyazaki created a spiritual world with a society, gave it movement, and set structure within the realm. It had just the same amount of magical qualities as Totoro (or maybe even more) but added a more depth, another layer. This spiritual world also consumed humans and had a more direct impact on the real world. It is especially important in Spirited Away because it takes Chihiro away from the familiar and surround her with the unfamiliar. It is in this realm that she matures into a more thoughtful girl. She learns of love, loss, and determination and experiences life changing moments that could not have happened in the real wold.
This dual fantasy allowed for the realms to coexist and influence each other. Where although they each hold a different world, they still play parts in each others. We see this with the polluted river spirit and with the situation/existence of Haku.
(oh yeah, so I sent this in an email, and meant to repost it. Here are some thoughts on Spirited Away!) - Aileen -
I feel like Chihiro's journey is not just about growing up. We've talked a lot about "growing" and "finding one's way" in Miyazaki's movie, but I think that Chihiro's growth has much more to do with love than his other movies. Yet, because it is a movie very much about her growth as a child, this seemed a bit odd to me. I think I should back track to make this point more clear:
So, if we look at Nausicaa, Mononoke Hime, Kiki, and even Porco--there are subtle love interests that act as a facet to each of the female characters. These interests open up over the span of the movie. For instance, the love relationships deepen with San and Ashitaka in their struggle to understand one another; or in Porco, with his conflicting feelings about Gina and his relationship with Fio. Still, Mononoke is about the conflict between the forest and the people; Kiki is about her finding her place in the city; Porco is about him finding his way as a pig, etc, etc. However, for Chihiro, it is her love for Haku that sends her on her journey and really runs the movie. Yes, it can be argued that her love for her parents kept her there to persevere, but I rather think that it was her fear of being alone that put her into that situation. Unlike the other movies, Chihiro's growth is directly affected by her relationship to Haku, and Miyazaki layers that love for this dragon river spirit with nature and with growing out of childhood. Everything she does is motivated by Haku, who is motivated by his love for her to help her save her parents. While the conflict of the movie begins because Yubaba turns her parents into pigs--the movie really centers about this blooming relationship with a girl and a river: Chihiro and Haku.
1) In Spirited Away, the fantasy world is much more distinct from the "real" world than in My Neighbor Totoro...it is literally a different world, one that can only be accessed in particular ways and which functions under its own rules and logic. I feel like the bath house in Spirited Away is also highly metaphorical.
2)Miyazaki sees the children of Japan's current generation as adrift and purposeless, surrounded by technological advancements and so-called progress, but spiritually empty and lacking in character. With Chihiro, however, he demonstrates his optimism that the situation is not hopeless, that seemingly weak children like Chihiro actually have great reserves of inner strength which they can call upon in times of need.
3. Miyazaki set this movie in a bathhouse because he wants to show the importance of keeping our nature and environment unharmed.
Many Kamis (Gods) come to the bathhouse to clean. They got dirty because of the wastes which generated by human beings. Japanese believe there are Gods to basically everything including the environment. In this fantastic world of the Spirited Away, Gods of river, ocean, trees, animals, and sky, and so on comes to the bathhouse to clean themselves. Many of those Gods have been polluted by humans’ everyday life.
The idea of ‘get cleaned’ is important here along with ‘who’ gets cleaned in the bathhouse. Moreover, the idea of Chihiro’s coming of age is presented in the movie through the bathtub. Chihiro experience changes her soul. As others said, it “purifies and cleans” Chihiro’s soul. The bathhouse certainly influenced an inexperienced little girl to grow up.
3)
We normally don't think Kamis (gods) would take a bath, and yet, Miyazaki sets the movie in the bathhouse for Kamis. That really adds the sense of fantasy to the story although what's happening is 'real' as many argued above. As contrast to the old Showa Japan in Totoro, the Spirited Away happens in the current period. This movie indirectly depicts how people's lives have become so busy and people are just wearing out; in such a busy world, even Kamis need to relax at a bathhouse. Throughout the movie, Miyazaki somewhat criticize our consumption-driven (materialistic) way of living. The family's car is Audi. Chihiro's father talks about the theme park and the economy's bubble in the 90's. He thinks he can pay for anything with his credit card. It seems to me that Miyazaki is questioning our current Capitalistic way of living, which seems to have produced a whole bunch of 'mess' as we saw from the Kawa-no-Kami scene - the bathhouse setting works pretty well. In addition, this setting is ideal for symbolizing someone's purification/growth as many pointed out already.
1 In "Spirited Away" there is obviously less overlap between the real world and fantasy. "Totoro" gave the impression that magic and wonder ran through the whole world; that it was reality. The lack of magic in the adults' world seemed to stem not from a lack of existence but from a lack of perception. For instance, the old lady acknowledges the existence of the dust creatures (stored in the attic during the beginning of the movie) by saying only that she cannot see them anymore; she readily believes that the girls saw them.
In "Spirited Away" the parents are never aware at any point of the place's magic. It would seem that the fantasy world in this movie is for Chihiro alone. We know that this fantasy world isn't merely confined to the Bathhouse and the places seen along the train tracks by the revelation that Haku was a river God. And of course, Chihiro was the only person aware of the river God saving her; the adults were clueless.
As to what these distinctions imply, much could be speculated. One question that should be asked, is, which world in "Spirited Away" is more real? Which one is on a higher plane of reality? If the answer is the spirit world, then it makes sense that Miyazaki would place Chihiro into it. In order to address Chihiro's inability to confront life's challenges, her fear and selfishness, Miyazaki places her in the Spirit world, a place of higher existence. And by having her overcome obstacles and gain courage etc. in this world, she will then be able to deal with the regular world.
I think that Miyazaki chose to put Spirited Away in a bath house setting because it allowed him to put more spirituality and Shinto religion references in the movie than he has been able to do previously. Shinto doesn't really fit in with the Adriatic Sea setting, or the German setting of Kiki's Delivery Service. Since this movie was clearly set in Japan, a bathhouse worked perfectly for Miyazaki's imagination to flourish. It is a good medium that can be used for Chihro to meet spirits and to show adoration, diversity, and hierarchy within the workers. It is a setting that Miyazaki could play around with more as well, because his European settings were so structured and "copied" from traditional views. He had the opportunity here to create a bath house however he wanted, as well as incorporating different spirits, magic, and different characters such as Rin and Kamaji.
The fantasy world in Spirited Away is more like a separate world with it's own rules/laws. It's a complex society, whereas the fantasy world in Totoro is more like a world together with the 'normal' world that is hidden. It's very simple. It's not its own society or anything like that. It's just a world in which Totoro can have fun and plant trees and interact with the innocent children. The fantasy world in Spirited Away is full of money and greed, an heirarchy, work, scheming, corruption, etc. It's very complex and business-like. I think that the fantasy world in Spirited Away reflect the 'real' world of adults, whereas the fantasy world of Totoro reflects childhood innocence. As for the bathhouse setting, I think it's interesting how it's supposed to be about purification. The bathhouse is obviously full of corruption and greed and this is a stark contrast to what it's supposed to represent. Chihiro, on the other hand, kind of brings that purity because she is not greedy like Yubaba and the other workers. She has genuine care. I also find it interesting how No Face becomes more and more 'impure' the longer he stays in the bathhouse and only when he leaves does he let out all the junk that he's been putting in himself and is purified.
I addressed the first two questions in my earlier post, but for number three...
Miyazaki, through his films, has always struck me as a deeply spiritual person, if not an explicitly religious ones (I'm not sure what Miyakaki's religious beliefs actually are, although I remember reading somewhere that he, like many people in Japan, follows a combination of Buddhist and Shinto teachings). Anyway, I feel like Spirited Away addresses Japanese spirituality in a unique and beautiful way, which is one of the reasons that I like the film so much. The bathhouse setting, where the spirits come to purify and replenish themselves, brings up some important messages. For one, it shows that the spirits are creatures of two worlds: the spiritual world, which is where the bathhouse is located, and the physical, "real" world. Thus problems in the physical world, such as pollution and environmental destruction, carry over to the spirits and harm them. This idea helps to foster Miyazaki's strong and constant environmental message. Another purpose of the bathhouse could be to demonstrate that the spirits are, in fact, very similar to humans: they work, form friendships, and are subject to human vices like greed. Although the movie is of course a creative and metaporical representation of real spiritual beliefs, it seems to serve an allegorical purpose.
Chihiro is doomed to live her current life…
1. The dual fantasy world of Spirited Away has a different purpose than in Totoro. In Totoro, the dual worlds are meant to emphasize the amazements and wonderments of childhood fantasies and discoveries. In Spirited Away, the dual worlds are used to show the motif that the characters are capable of so much more even though they are not capable of either showing or conveying this. The dual worlds in Spirited Away are proving grounds to Chihiro. Miyazaki is commenting that this spoiled brat in a loveless family is capable of being a strong, confident, and passionately loving family person if she is given a chance, an opportunity. Miyazaki ends the movie as if nothing happened to the family; however, he is commenting that Chihiro is capable of being the ideal women that is portrayed throughout Miyazaki past films. However, Miyazaki is criticizing that the current society and family setting is restricting the strengths of future children. The current society and family setting is fostering an environment that prohibits children from flourishing and proving how strong they are. Ultimately, Chihiro is doomed as she must live her current life in the society and her family unit…
3. Miyazaki set this movie in a bathhouse to provide commentary on how materialism is affecting the old traditions and morals. Even in this spiritual world at a bathhouse, a place for cleansing and respecting traditions, greed and materialism are still present and corrupt a person. Both greed and materialism makes a person overlook their original purpose and their life.
- Michael Iseri
I would say that the fantasy world of Spirited Away is more like a crucible while the fantasy world of Totoro is more like a goose-down pillow. In Totoro we see much less change in the characters and more on the emphasis on the wonder, magic, and security that the fantasy world offers.
On the other hand, Spirited Away shows a much harsher world where death and eternal enslavement are definite threats. Children who are unable to contribute anything do not last long. There is much more of a sense of terror and bleakness as well. But despite that from the fire does emerge a kind of beauty since we see the dross in Chihiro's character get skimmed away to reveal the shiny core.
Miyazaki addresses the experience of meeting his friend's daughter as he guides the main character through a storyline that forces her to become independent and take on challenges to rescue her parents.
She begins to not take things for granted, and really work for a desired outcome. Having a mission to save her parents gave her a calling, a purpose, and meaning to her life.
Miyazaki was most likely wanting to speak to the girl he knows personally, and encourage her to step outside her comfort zone, and look beyond her own immediate needs and begin to take on responsibility, seeing her own influential power and potential despite her age.
Lillian Guo
I think people have already discussed how in Totoro, the fantasy is within the realm of reality, where they girls easily cross from between fantasy and reality to the point where fantasy seems normal. However, Spirited Away is more about Chihiro falling down the rabbit hole into a world that is completely fantastical. Totoro's duality is definitely rooted a lot in the real world, and it leaves the characters able to explore the world they inhabit. It elicits a sense of childhood wonder. However, in Spirited Away, Chihiro is completely immersed in a world that she's isn't used to, which forces her to grow as a character. I think the fantasy world definitely serves as a setting for a coming of age story. In comparison, Totoro isn't so much about growing up as it is about experiencing childhood. Chihiro, whom I assume is on her own for the first time, learns how to adapt and survive and subsequently mature.
The dual fantasy world of Spirited Away is almost opposite to that of Totoro. For example, in Spirited Away, the concept of materialism is very much a theme: almost everyone in the bathhouse is obsessed with gold and money (as we see from the No-Face scene). Yubaba is presented with expensive, flashy jewelry and a strict notion of how the run her bathhouse in order to earn more money. We see the near opposite in Totoro, whose world consist of nature and all the wonderful things it produces. The materialistic theme is non-existent, and instead, like the countryside the girls live in, a more peaceful, appreciative theme is produced. I believe these differences and the factors they possess serves the purpose of what message Miyazaki was trying to explain through his films. Totoro's message is a simple, peaceful one, giving the audience the sense of magic and tranquility. Spirited Away's message, however, is much more complicated, as with deals with magic plus the rules and regulations of a working society with materialistic goals.
(hannah again)
The fantasy world of Spirited Away does not mesh. In My Neighbor Totoro, the fantasy realm meshed with the real world, in most cases so seamlessly that the distinction between the two was unclear, likely Miyazaki’s intent. But in Spirited Away, the fantasy world is clearly bordered, both physically (the tunnel) and metaphysically (in terms of the functions of the characters when they are in each world). The fantasy world in Spirited Away, actually, was nearly the opposite of the average of the real world in the very same movie. The conflict of Chihiro needing to gain her self-sufficiency was uniform across both, magnified in the spirit realm, but very little else was similar. Perhaps it can be seen that the fantasy world of Spirited Away explores more the realm of the human mind, while the fantasy world of Totoro is more concerned with the function of nature, as inhuman a basis as possible.
Well one obvious difference between Totoro and Spirited Away is that in Totoro, Satsuki and Mei willing going into Totoro's world. Whereas in Spirited Away, Chihiro goes into a different world unknowningly and unwillingly. Furthermore, Totoro is more welcoming to the girls while Yubaba and the rest of the spirit world seem less inclined to accept Chihiro because she is human.
I think that Miyazaki is trying to portray his friends daughter in Chihiro by making her seem whiny with no manners. But by constantly bringing it up in the first half of the movie, I think Miyazaki wants to bring attention to this and wants to change the way Chihiro is. Chihiro does change in the second half in that she becomes more independent. In one sense, just like Chihiro undergoes a transformation, Miyazaki wants his friends daughter and all other girls like her to undergo the transformation that Chihiro goes. After reading the articles, I think that Miyazaki would probably want children to be more like the ones in Tokyo because they seem less stress and less dependent on their parents. The kids in the other city seem to be highly influenced by their parents. That isn't bad but I think Miyazaki would prefer that children make their own decisions instead of relying on their parents heavily which is what Chihiro often did.
For the third question, I think that Miyazaki made Spirited Away take place in a bathhouse because its the best place where Chihiro could grow and mature without being tainted by the outside world. Spiritual cleanliness is important so a spiritual bathhouse would be ideal for Chihiro.
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